Geoff's Story

(0:02) 

LK: So Geoff, my name is Liz and as you know, we are collecting stories of LGBTQ+ families in Ireland through objects. Your object history interview will be made available in a collection of material that will be held in a website of the RIFNET project for up to a period of five years. It will be available as a transcript and as three minutes short snippet. Images of the website will be preserved by UCC for a period of five years. Your photograph and your sash will be displayed on the website and used in similar ways. And the data collected will be permanently held in the Digital Repository of Ireland. So do you understand and are you okay with that? 

G: Yes. 

LK: Okay. So then we’ll just proceed with the usual interview. And I suppose first of all, if you didn’t mind for the benefit of the listener to describe what we have here in front of us. What it looks like, and, you know, it’s, I suppose, meaning to you. 

(1:10) 

G: Okay. So it’s a sash, maybe kind of slightly crudely made, but not bad. (laughter) Yeah, I suppose I wore this in 1998 when I won a competition, it was held in Temple Bar. So yeah, I suppose it was a pageant and most of the… the overall competition was called the Mr Boiler House Competition and, yeah, so I won this particular heat of the competition. So it was also the first night that I met my boyfriend Colm, we’re still together. Although we didn’t… we only kind of briefly spoke that night and yeah, so he’d kind of seen me on stage. Basically, I ended up on stage kind of by accident, I had no intentions of entering this competition but I’d entered the place where the competition was being held this night and a friend of mine was involved with organizing this competition and pleaded with me to enter it because they were… they didn’t quite get the numbers they wanted and so I had no intention of entering the competition. And so okay, I reluctantly agreed and then I was, I suppose I was a little intimidated at first by the other guys that were there. They seemed maybe a lot more prepared than me and groomed than I was but I guess somehow I still kind of won the competition… that part of the competition that night. 

LK: Okay and was the first time you ever entered a competition? 

G: Yeah, definitely. It was the first time I’d ever done anything like that and I haven’t done anything like that since. So yeah, it was… kind of surprised myself, to be honest, that I entered it. 

LK: And how were you wearing it? What did your costume look like? 

G: I suppose the costume was kind of like a funny question because I can’t remember all of the details about the night but I know that I was in a pair of boxers… in the pair of boxer shorts that I’d worn out that night, but it was that kind of competition, I guess. So yeah, it was and I remember not particularly wearing the best type of brand that I could be wearing for a competition. I think they were like a Dunnes Stores pair of underwear that I was kind of in and you know, had I have known I was going to be in a competition, I probably would have maybe wore something a bit better. But yeah, so that there wasn’t a costume that I wore at all but at one point there was people at the front of the stage shouting at me ‘Off! Off! Off!’ as in take my boxer shorts off. So yeah, I was naked for a brief period on stage and yeah, maybe that’s what I won it for, I don’t know. 

LK: You obviously impressed anyway.

G: Yeah, unfortunately not Colm that night though. 

LK: No? 

(5:20) 

G: He… so I ended up sort of hooking up with one of the other contestants that night but while I was with this guy, I can’t remember where we were going afterwards but I think that was the first time I met my boyfriend – man – Colm. We were in the queue when he kind of caught my eye while I was with this other guy, which is terrible. So he… Colm just thought I was this really arrogant person who’d entered a competition kind of big-headed, and you know, but which, like I explained was kind of, I hadn’t even intended on being in this competition but he had this impression of me, I guess that… you know, maybe more confident than I was and so yeah, it wasn’t until a few months later that we actually met again, it was probably about six months later. It was funny because he never told me that we’d met that night but when we met, I was kind of sure that I had seen him somewhere before and… but he… so yeah, shortly after that period we started going out and we were actually going out about three years before he actually told me that we’d met on the night of this competition. 

LK: Okay, so you didn’t exchange any words it was just that he caught your eye and he knew you were there, was it? 

G: I think maybe we briefly spoke but he would have been dismissive of me. I remember that much. I don’t remember exactly what was said it was probably only a few words. 

LK: Okay.

G: But definitely, he dismissed me that night as being cocky and arrogant.

LK: Okay, and that impression wasn’t what you thought was reflective of your true self? 

(7:41) 

G: No, I don’t think so at all. And, yeah, it was kind of funny as well because there seemed to be a lot of resentment from other contestants and so on that I won. It was interesting, because, you know, people were still coming up to me afterwards, you know, like, weeks later, and one, kind of, other contestant who was kind of bitter was saying, because I was 18 at the time, and he was a few years older, and this kind of saying how ‘Oh, they wanted youth for the… somebody that young for the competition… to win the competition and so on’. And it was like ‘well, I didn’t know what they wanted or whatever’, but. 

LK: And what age were you then would you have been around? G: So when the competition itself was held, I was 18, yeah. 

LK: You were young. And did you have to strut your stuff? Or did you have to do anything? What exactly? 

G: Yeah, I know, there was bits of dancing. It’s kind of funny, because, you know, I suppose I haven’t thought about it that much in a long time, you know, so some bits are kind of hazy. Alcohol was involved when I entered, so I was kind of a bit drunk at the time as well so mostly the bits I remember are being naked. People came up to me for years afterwards, actually, like ten years later was the longest somebody came ‘Oh, I remember you, you’re the guy from this competition.’ So that was yeah, I was kind of quite surprised by how often after it that people kind of remembered it. 

LK: You obviously had an impact (LK and J laugh) from the sounds of what you’re saying anyway. And did you plan something in advance or was it just totally ad-lib on the night, just do what you think came naturally to you? 

(9:50) 

G: I actually, you know, you’ve kind of jogged my memory ever so slightly, like, I remember there was… there was questions and answers. I can’t remember what the questions were, probably awful, the answers anyway. And I just remember being backstage and them kind of talking… we weren’t told not to go naked and, you know, in some cases, they were kind of saying, ‘Oh, it might be better to be clothed, you know, leave people guessing kind of thing’. But it wasn’t discouraged the idea. And maybe I think I might be the only one but there were people at the front of the stage shouting to drop my briefs (laughter). 

LK: Okay. And how did the sash feature in the event? Did you wear it a lot? 

G: So I guess I would have worn it when I was announced as winner. I mean, it was placed over me. And yeah, so at that point, I would have had my boxer shorts back on and yeah, I would have been wearing the sash and that was about it. That would have… I’d imagine that was over fairly quickly from what I remember, I’d say it was pretty much announced and yeah, it was kind of put on me and then that was it. I don’t think I wore it after, you know, I didn’t… you know the night itself, like it was a club night. 

LK: Yeah. 

G: So I guess… Like, I didn’t wear it around the club that night, I’m sure I probably had it in my hand or something or put it in, you know, in the cloakroom. But I knew I wanted to keep it though. I do remember that much. I was kind of, you know, I’m sure I asked as well. Could I? Could I keep it? 

LK: Yeah. And it is, I mean, it is very pretty. I know you said it’s kind of crudely made but it’s still, you know, it’s still carefully made, I think, and the lettering is quite precise and carefully done. 

G: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, it’s yeah, kind of. Yeah, the material isn’t too bad. You know, like, there’s kind of like a, you know, I suppose, like a ribbon on the end kind of. Yeah, somebody did put some thought into it but I guess they probably weren’t the… maybe not the greatest seamstress. 

LK: Yeah but still quite, quite well done, I think. And so it was placed over your head in the usual way? 

G: Yeah. 

LK: a girl would get a sash. And did you get flowers or anything else? Or was there any other kind of presentation? 

G: I think, I… Do you know, it’s only now that it’s been mentioned the idea of flowers, I think maybe I did get flowers? 

LK: (Inaudible) 

G: Yeah and I don’t think I held on to the flowers, like, brought them home or anything. But yeah, I think there was some flowers. 

LK: Okay. And so then I suppose what did the sash mean to you back then? Did you… you obviously kept it so it had some meaning for you? Maybe because… Well, you tell me. Why do you think? 

(13:26) 

G: Well, I suppose, you know, it brings me right back to the start of my relationship with Colm. We’ve been together, you know, over 20 years at this stage and so it was the first night we met. I often think it’s funny that he didn’t… you know, I would have talked about this on occasion when we were going out at first but for some reason, he just never mentioned that I had come on to him that night. And he… so I suppose it brings me right back to that and it’s part of the reason why I kept it. I suppose, you know, I wouldn’t have been that confident, you know, as well, like in terms of how I looked and so on. And the fact that I did win, this was a bit of a confidence boost. And I suppose back then, you know, now it doesn’t have that significance for me in terms of, you know, needing that validation or anything. But yeah, I guess it was just I suppose I remember that was a fun time as well. And yeah, it just reminds me of that. I mean, this was actually kept in my parents’ house until just last Saturday and you know, I actually… in my apartment. I live in the city and it’s a small apartment and thankfully, my parents have like a big enough house that can accommodate a lot of my stuff and so every now and again, I’ll kind of… I’ll go back, and I’ll see stuff and I probably have thrown out some things over the years but then I’ve seen this in a box, taken a look at it, smiled, and decided to keep it. So, yeah. 

LK: Yeah, yeah. And why do you think you smile? Is it because it brings you back to happy times? Or that… or because of your relationship, or what? 

G: It’s probably a combination of both, like, both my relationship, you know, because it was the first night we met. And, yeah, they were fun times, I suppose, you know. You know, I went on to, I suppose what you would call… what we would have called the ‘gay scene’ in Dublin when I was too young for it because I was 17. So by the time I started going out with Colm, I was 19. But I suppose I remember having a great time around then, of course, that continued with Colm, I don’t want to suggest that all of a sudden, things stopped but yeah, it was just a great time and very liberating and kind of felt free. And I suppose they were different times in terms of, you know, the pubs and clubs back then as well, I suppose were, you know, I could be free, you know and then, you know, when you left that behind during the week, it… Yeah, I mean, they were a great refuge almost back then because I suppose society has changed quite a bit. So yeah, when you had these two different worlds, one where you could be totally free and then one where you had to be careful about, you know, almost hiding, you know, queerness, you know, when you’re in the outside world, I suppose this…yeah, this was… brings me back to that. 

LK: And say would other people in your life know of this? And would you? You know, kind of take it out every now and again and have a chat or laugh about it? 

(17:56) 

G: No, it’s funny, I’m probably the only person that has actually seen this in, you know, this is probably its first unveiling in the past week for a long time because it was stored at my parents. Colm, my boyfriend, probably hadn’t seen it in years, until I showed it to him the other day, you know, when I took it out of storage again. I mean, my mother, when she seen it the other day remembered it straightaway but I don’t think… she might not have even been aware that I still had it, you know, even though it’s stored in her house. Yeah, it… I suppose, you know, there was that ten year mark after it happened when somebody said ‘I remember you from’, you know, that was quite amazing that somebody remembered over ten years later. I think maybe that was when it, you know, any kind of reminiscing about it beyond my own, you know, occasionally coming across it in the box happened, you know? 

LK: And do you think that it was because you were 18? Or because it was the scene as it was at the time that was so kind of freeing or? Or was it a combination of the two? 

G: Probably a combination of the two. Yeah, because I think things have really changed since then, like I remember even getting the bus into town at that point and actually being terrified of somebody maybe seeing me going into like a gay club after I got off the bus or something, there was a kind of like a fear there. I mean, not particularly with this club but particularly The George which was closer to the bus stop and I would have been terrified of even the bus driver kind of seeing me going into The George, which, yeah. 

LK: Yeah. And would it be friends? Or who… where was your fear coming from? Would it be just that people wouldn’t know and now they would know or? 

(20:34) 

G: Well, I suppose, you know, there was… Society, I suppose, was probably more hostile back then and, you know, it was people very… or it was okay to be openly homophobic, I guess back then and so, I suppose the fear was, if that, you know, that turned physical, you know, if that became violent or whatever, and, you know, I suppose back then, every few 

months, I suppose you’d hear of somebody being queerbashed or whatever and I mean, I suppose quite regularly, I would have been verbally abused, you know, on the street, and so on. So, yeah, I suppose there was… there was that definite fear of, you know, always trying to handle that situation as well, like, in terms of trying to brush it off, ensuring that it didn’t turn violent, you know, I suppose turning the other cheek in a way, you know. So, yeah, I guess, even the people, you were always I suppose back then you were always kind of, well, I was always kind of, I’m sure other people were the same, you know, in terms of if you’re going to tell somebody you were gay, you were testing. First, you know, you were listening very carefully to what people were saying, how if they’d be okay with you being gay, and so on, and yeah, I suppose it was just a very, very different time. 

LK: Yeah. And were you a student, or were you working then? 

G: So up until… I was doing my Leaving Cert at this point. Yeah, I suppose (to himself) was the competition? I suppose the competition was just before I did my Leaving Cert. I think the final may have just been, you know, that the final part of the competition was maybe after… just after the Leaving Cert? 

LK: And was the final part of the competition similar to the one you were in, was it? 

G: Yeah, it was quite similar. I… it was actually in the same venue. So it was the Temple Bar Music Centre. The place was called the Temple Bar Music Centre. Wonderbar was the name of the night that was held there, you know. There was probably more regular to have, you know, clubs, kind of, on the nights that weren’t… This was actually held on a Saturday night, which in some ways is unusual, but I suppose a lot of, you know, there was lots of club nights back then as opposed to there were LGBTQ venues all week round. Quite often, I think they just seen that as a way of… the owners seeing it as a way of making extra money on the quiet nights when I think yeah, I think we probably went out more. 

LK: When you met your boyfriend subsequent to that was it a more sober kind of formal thing or not? 

(24:22) 

G: So it’s probably also a sign at the times actually. Colm worked in a video shop. He worked in Xtravision. So they were renting VHS cassettes, I guess it was at that time, DVD probably was probably just maybe a couple years away or so. So Colm was working there and a friend of mine just got a job there at the same time and so he started telling me about this guy Colm who he’s working with. ‘He’s exactly your type, he’s (inaudible), you’ll love him, you should come up. I’ll introduce you’ and so. I suppose at first I hesitated, not realising it was obviously the same guy I’ve met before and so, yeah, I went up to the shop and was absolutely crazy about him. Like, it’s probably cheesy to say, but I think I fell in love with them. Like, you know, I think it was love at first sight, like, and you know, I had this kind of strange feeling that we were going to be together. And I remember telling people afterwards like, ‘Aw, I met this guy, he’s gorgeous’ and was like, ‘we’re going to be together’. And like, I remember telling people that and then kind of like, (dismissive) ‘yeah, yeah’. And kind of, you know. So it turned out that Colm didn’t actually live too far away from me, even though we’d met in the city originally. Yeah, he kind of lived maybe a twenty minute walk away from where I lived and yeah only worked up the road and so then… Yeah, we were… then same friend who worked in Xtravision kind of suggested we all go on a night out a little bit after that. So but he actually hadn’t told me that Colm was going out with somebody. So it was then a little… it took another little while before we kind of got together like whereby we kind of met socially a few times and then New Year’s Eve. Yeah, we’ve kind of got together on New Year’s Eve then officially started going out a few weeks after that. Yeah. 

LK: So is Mr Wonderbar a different kind of persona, do you think? 

G: Probably, yeah. (laughter) Definitely. There was… I couldn’t imagine myself even doing this now. I think it’s kind of, you know, I suppose I was probably kind of shy. So the fact that, you know, I suppose alcohol played a part, you know. And, then yeah, I’m kind of surprised that I… Thinking back, I’m kind of surprised I went along to the final. I don’t think I done too badly in the final. I didn’t win, but that’s okay. I’m not sure where that came from that, you know, exhibitionism, a slightly exhibitionist kind of person came from but yeah, he probably Mr Wonderbar probably is a different person to me. 

LK: And if you were to chat about it now, what do you think is Colm’s kind of impression of this and how he sees it all or how he’d talk about it with you now? 

G: Well, it’s kind of funny when I told him that I was bringing this along, and you know, he kind of jumped about ‘Oh, you’re reliving the glory years?’ kind of. So yeah, I think probably both of us probably see it as something kind of funny. And yeah. I don’t think he takes it particularly seriously or neither do I, but it was a, you know, it was a great experience to have had, it’s kind of, you know, fun. Yeah, it’s kind of interesting. We never really, we’ve never really had like, you know, he never really said why he didn’t tell me initially. I suppose maybe because his first impressions of me weren’t great and that he didn’t want to admit that. 

LK: And would he be the type of person that would enter a competition like that? No? 

(29:50) 

G: (Laughter) One hundred percent, no. If I’m not the type of person to enter a competition like that, Colm is like, you know, multiply that by a hundred. He just would not like being centre of attention or, yeah. 

LK: Yeah, it’s kind of interesting. It’s an interesting object I think relative to the others as well you know. So, given that this project is just about, you know, say the, the Irish family and looking at the Irish family in a different kind of way. Does the sash provide you with some kind of insight to that or some… What do you think it says to us? 

G: Okay, so, well the sash brings me right back to the start, and I think that you know, it was quite interesting back then, like in terms of, we’re not married and you know, in terms of this bringing the right back to the start. I remember when we were initially going out kind of not realising… not having a, you know, I would have grown up and not known anybody gay, and that was really possible back then, you know? So there was no gay couples to look to for okay how is it… how do you do that kind of relationship because… I suppose things for, you know, for like a heterosexual couple as well, I suppose roles were changing there as well to a certain extent, you know, and so, I kind of felt as though in terms of how to have this relationship, I didn’t quite know what we were doing to a certain extent. So we kind of had to make up our own rules and what it was that we wanted. So, like I remember, we used to take these trips around Ireland in the early years we were going out. Again, probably part of that fear of, you know, being judged as a gay couple or whatever. Sometimes we’d kind of rent hotel rooms or whatever and you know, there was that fear of like, are they going to judge us, we’re a gay couple and then I remember on a few occasions as well and you don’t see it happening now. You know, I think we even went… one time we went abroad, we went to Barcelona, and you know, this kind of confusion on the staff of like, we, you know, we wanted to like share a bed and so there was lots… there seemed to be a lot more pushing us apart in some way, you know, than bringing us together. 

(33.55) 

G: And so, I suppose even back then the idea of marriage or kind of gay marriage didn’t even enter our minds. You know, like, it just wasn’t even an idea back then, I don’t think, you know. I think I remember hearing a few people had ceremonies, their own kind of was ceremonies and being like ‘Okay, that’s good for them’. So we kind of, like I said, we made our own rules in a way and we figured things out for ourselves. So, I suppose by the time marriage came around, you know, 2015, it wasn’t something we particularly needed and I didn’t particularly strive for it either, you know, it was kind of a… it was kind of a strange one for me, you know, because you know, we went on the marches beforehand for Marriage Equality and so on and knowing that I didn’t really want to get married and for me, it just seemed like a structure I didn’t need and I suppose part of me was angry as well. We had figured it out ourselves. I didn’t need the State telling me that this was okay and that sounds kind of angry. I don’t feel that anger anymore. Like I felt… I suppose there was a period where I felt angry at the State, angry at the country, for you know… I’ve probably let all of that go now but. You know, in terms of the sash, like I say, brings me right back to the beginning and those steps we took together and those things we figured out together and the impact it has now like I still… I still don’t want to get married. I don’t have… I don’t feel this need. I don’t think that it would change our relationship. You know, I think we’re strong enough without it. We figured it out on our own. Maybe if we grew up in a time where maybe kids now are growing up with the idea that, you know, you don’t have to be traditional, male, female, and nothing in between type marriage. You know, we’re getting used to that. I suppose we’re getting used to that idea and had we had grown up with that, maybe I’d feel differently, maybe not. I mean, I suppose there’s a part of me that never wanted to fully fit in anyway. I probably just wanted to be just accepted for who I was rather than trying to fit a mould. 

(37:10) 

LK: You probably… do feel a sense of accomplishment that you did figure things out as you went along and, you know, the relationship has lasted over so much time? 

G: Yeah, I’m quite proud of that. I think it probably made things more interesting that we didn’t have a template. I remember realising that at one point. One of my brothers, particularly, I see some things he does now even and it’s almost like he looks back to when we were growing up. We’re only about a year and a half or something, nearly two years age gap between us, you know, he’s straight and I almost feel as though he does look a bit back to when we were growing up and back to my parents almost like as a guide for him. I remember becoming aware of that when he started going out initially with his girlfriend then wife and yeah, so the fact that… Yeah, I suppose I do feel a certain sense of accomplishment from having figured it out. 

LK: Yeah and I suppose he had maybe a template as well to look to whereas you had to work it out. But I am kind of amazed that it was you know, you were young, you know, so you must have had both quite mature heads in some respects to be able to work things out like that 

G: (to himself) Did we have mature heads. I don’t… I don’t know.

LK: Or a real strong bond or something, you know? It’s quite impressive. 

G: I guess. We did, you know, we did fall for each other. I remember… I remember back then, you know, before we got together, I kind of presumed that maybe I’d meet somebody around 25 and have that kind of relationship, you know, I kind of seen that as a few years off. But I guess we just fell in love and you know, you know, we did have… we broke up one time. We were going out a number of months and I remember just… I was the one who kind of initiated, you know, breaking off, breaking up. And it just seemed at that point that I wanted to maybe move quicker than him you know, in terms of we’re going out, you know? It’s sort of… I don’t really want to go over an old argument to a certain extent (laughter) but I was probably just more ready for the relationship early on. I broke up and then was absolutely devastated with my own decision and a few days later, we talked and I kind of, you know, said, you know, pretty much put it to him ‘okay, we’ll go at your pace’ or whatever, and that’s fine. But then actually, he also felt kind of, he was also devastated by the breakup as well. So it almost, like, the relationship almost progressed a bit more than you know, in that period as we both had time to think about, you know, what we wanted and then I think after that we got we got back together we, kind of, I suppose we were solid after that. Colm went to London for a period of time then but we still stayed together even though we were living in different countries. Yeah, I suppose the breakup that either, you know, made us or broke us, I guess. It is quite decisive. And, you know, I kind of remember doubting at the time when we got back together, whether he would… some of the things that I kind of felt like where he was holding back, you okay will he change, but he actually absolutely did like the relationship did change. I remember he was the first person to say I love you. I remember being both terrified by that and, you know, I suppose because having to hide so much who I was, you know. There was… to be that open with somebody… knowing that I loved him back. To say it back. And you know, that we kind of had this feeling I guess that we knew each other so well, even though maybe we weren’t going out that long and I worried about not saying it back, even though I went into shock when he said it. It was amazing and terrifying all at the same time. And yeah, I remember him saying to me shortly afterwards ‘there was no hurry in saying back’. And actually, I think he said to me, ‘I know you’re scared and that’s okay’. And the fact that he knew and I suppose that he seen me and understood that about me without me having ever said that, like verbalised that, he knew that and I guess that’s something, still to this day that he can still surprise me and that he can be so perceptive and sometimes he’ll only say like a few words. He doesn’t… he’s a fairly quiet person, he doesn’t say that much and then sometimes when he says things they can be so succinct and so spot on, it kind of still blows my mind that… Like I go through these looking at things from a hundred different angles and can be indecisive and then there’s times where it kind of blows my mind that he’s able to just do this thing of summing something up and being so, yeah, incisive, and clever. 

LK: It sounds like you complement each other quite well, quite nicely. 

G: Probably. Yeah. We’re probably very different people as well. In some ways alike, in another ways then just, 

LK: Not at all.

G: Yeah, yeah.

(45:42)

LK: And do you see each other… do you see yourselves as a unit? As a family? 

G: It’s kind of funny because you know, with this project it’s forced me to think about it to a certain extent. I think I do and I think I view him as my family, you know, and our dog funnily enough. We’ve a little Jack Russell called Oscar and it’s like we’re his parents. I suppose I get… like I’ve always viewed the relationship as, like, while we’re happy together. I don’t think I ever made a presumption that in 10 years’ time we’re going to be together, even though we’ve been together like 22-23 years or something. I’ve never sat down and thought, okay, in 10 years’ time we’re going to do this together or… and it’s always been, from my point of view anyway, while we’re happy together and it’s maybe that’s why we’ve lasted as well. I’m not sure. 

LK: Yeah. 

G: Yeah, it’s interesting family like he wasn’t openly gay with his family when we were first going out. It was a few years before he came out to his family, but it was quite interesting that you know, his mam and dad. I never expected, you know, when I’m with his family, that I feel part of that family and they’ve always made me feel, you know, from the moment Colm came out, I guess. You know, before he came out to them, we wouldn’t have talked that much. You know, and I guess I probably would have avoided, you know, because I was openly gay. I probably, you know, I didn’t want to be in an awkward situation whereby I’d have to lie or you know, about being gay or whatever not being with Colm but yeah, I’ve always felt from when they knew the two of us were a couple, like we actually lived together for a brief period before Colm even came out and I remember his dad actually helping him move in and just came… we only had a one bedroom apartment, so, he didn’t… His dad didn’t really look around the apartment or whatever and wasn’t offered a tour either, not that it was that big, but you know, just turned left into the sitting room in the apartment and dropped off Colm’s stuff. So that was kind of strange. But yeah, when… once Colm came out, I remember when we went… they actually took us on holiday one year and I suppose that was when I got to know them better and I was quite surprised by… I didn’t presume I’d ever have that relationship beyond Colm, you know, with his family but it’s always felt very comfortable and yeah, I remember his… I think it might have been last year. Anyway, but it was in recent times anyway where I went out with Colm’s family, I think it was his mam’s birthday. Colm’s sister. It started raining. And you know, even though she was only kind of joking. I had an umbrella and she kind of grabbed my arm and kind of grabbed my arm and came under the umbrella and was like, said something about, you know, ‘oh, my favourite brother-in-law’ kind of thing. It was like… so I think they think of me as well, you know, even though we’re not married or there’s nothing official there. Yeah, I don’t think the idea of marriage really matters. They think of me as well as family. I know his mam certainly has said some things as well that kind of pretty much suggested that… I know she’d like us to get married and some other people in the family as well, kind of, bring it up regularly enough. 

LK: That’s nice. Is there anything else you want to say? I’m conscious that I’ve been firing questions at you. Is there anything you’d like to mention that maybe I haven’t asked or talked about? 

G: I don’t think there is. Yeah, I think… no I just hope maybe I’ve talked enough about, because I know the idea is about family and so on. I don’t know if I’ve talked more about the night? 

LK: But I think it’s how do you object provides us with a way of talking about family and maybe in a different way as well than we usually do at times. You know, I think definitely you’ve met that mark definitely. Thanks very much. 

G: Thank you.